Tippmann Forum - Facts About ObamaCare, What you need to know...

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High Voltage View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:15pm

Probably as many people who work for insurance companies have sworn to it.

FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:22pm

Originally posted by High Voltage

Probably as many people who work for insurance companies have sworn to it.

and again, you can sue the insurance companies if they do you wrong. This threat of litigation keeps them in check.

But, under obamacare, you CAN'T sue... They are ABOVE the courts.

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

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oldpbnoob

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:24pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

...

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

...

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Highlighted some areas, that may be pertinent to the example that you gave. Please show me where in the oath that it says " I swear to continue spending $4000 a month to extend someones life that is going to die anyways".

Edited by oldpbnoob - 12 August 2009 at 2:24pm

High Voltage View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:24pm

Non blog citation needed.

oldpbnoob

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:27pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

Originally posted by High Voltage

Probably as many people who work for insurance companies have sworn to it.

and again, you can sue the insurance companies if they do you wrong. This threat of litigation keeps them in check.

But, under obamacare, you CAN'T sue... They are ABOVE the courts.

Note the irony of advocating lawsuits in the medical field. Wasn't one of your arguments at one point that there was too much frivolous litigation, thus the increase in malpractice insurance? Which side of our rear are YOU talking out of now?

FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:30pm

Lets get a rabid liberals perspective on Obamacare...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2009/08/12/town_halls/

Originally posted by High Voltage

Non blog citation needed.

Dude, I post facts... srsly...

http://brainshavings.com/2009/07/text-of-us-houses-obamacare-bi.html

page 124 read the "limitations on review"...

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

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FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:33pm

Originally posted by oldpbnoob

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

Originally posted by High Voltage

Probably as many people who work for insurance companies have sworn to it.

and again, you can sue the insurance companies if they do you wrong. This threat of litigation keeps them in check.

But, under obamacare, you CAN'T sue... They are ABOVE the courts.

I am for tort reform... I like the system in california that has a $250,000 limit. As that keeps the insurance companies as well as trial lawyers in check...

But, to take away the "right" to sue I am totally opposed.

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

Hope for Change 1.20.13

oldpbnoob

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 2:46pm

Still waiting for you to show me where in the Hipocratic Oath that is says " at any cost for a couple more months of life"

oldpbnoob

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 3:23pm

So at what point are you allowed to deny treatment?

What if treatment cost $10,000/month to extend a terminal life for two months?

$100,000 per month for two more months?

$5 million per month for 4 months?

1 million for 3 days?

Which of these is acceptable?

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:21pm

All of them are acceptable (even though there is not treatment that costs 1 million for 3 days... Nice strawman btw.

Whatever a doctor would do to save Obama's life... That is what we all deserve, and nothing less, no matter the age, including the unborn.

"LIFE, Liberty and the persuit of happiness"...

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FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:26pm

Originally posted by oldpbnoob

Still waiting for you to show me where in the Hipocratic Oath that is says " at any cost for a couple more months of life"

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

All measures that are required doesn't place limits on timeframe as we all will eventually die, cost should never take precidence on the operating table. Man would I hate to have you as a doctor...

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

Hope for Change 1.20.13

jmac3

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:29pm

Not reading any of this thread, but here:

[url]http://factcheck.org/2009/08/white-house-fact-checking/[url]

[url]http://factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthanasia-claims/[url]

Also, I had D'Angelos chicken stir fry for lunch. MMMM

If none of those 3 things covers the topic at hand, I do not care.

"If you want a cheaper sport, go play softball"-NEPL Ref

oldpbnoob

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:40pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

Originally posted by oldpbnoob

Still waiting for you to show me where in the Hipocratic Oath that is says " at any cost for a couple more months of life"

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

All measures that are required doesn't place limits on timeframe as we all will eventually die, cost should never take precidence on the operating table. Man would I hate to have you as a doctor...

Except for the end of the sentence. Where you read at any cost, I read that there are limits and doctors should know them. And it is referring to saving a life, curing it, not prolonging the inevitable.

And as a printer, where do you get off even having an opinion. According to you only a doctor should be able to make such a decision. So if I wanted to die, should a doctor let me or make me live? Doesnt that fall under playing God?

I think any reasonable person would be able to rationalize what is acceptable and doubt many would say it is ok to spend $5million to extend someones life 4 months. The point being, that you don't truly have to be a doctor to make such judgments.

Gatyr

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:53pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

cost should never take precidence on the operating table.

Ignoring your previous fiscal quandaries with this system (hugely hypocritical, btw; cost should never take precedence over other factors, yet, under the system you advocate most, those who can't pay should be subject to their "poor life decisions" because "healthcare is not a right, but a privilege"), what of the ethics behind extending a painful and horribly monotonous life for two more months? One riddled with hoses, needles, bedpans, and pain.

Do you believe there to be any circumstances that warrant euthanasia?

High Voltage View Drop Down

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 4:59pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

cost should never take precidence on the operating table.

What about quality of life?

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 5:42pm

If all of that is accurate (and I tend to believe it, coming from a reputable site for once), I am not going to be a fan of Obama for very long.

mbro

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 5:47pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

Originally posted by Benjichang

So? Private insurance plans have drug formularies, too. Some things are covered, some aren't.

You can sue a private health care system, if they go overboard and deny payment to save your grandma's life...

And you could also have private insurance to supplement what is not covered by a government insurance plan. Just like you can in every other country.

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mbro

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Posted: 12 August 2009 at 5:50pm

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

All of them are acceptable (even though there is not treatment that costs 1 million for 3 days... Nice strawman btw.

Whatever a doctor would do to save Obama's life... That is what we all deserve, and nothing less, no matter the age, including the unborn.

So we should all receive the same health care plan then? Even if we cannot afford it?

Please Stop .Us, Future Home of MBro Vision 2.0

FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 13 August 2009 at 7:59am

Originally posted by oldpbnoob

Where you read at any cost, I read that there are limits and doctors should know them. And it is referring to saving a life, curing it, not prolonging the inevitable.

Well, you are mistaken, that referres to doing "extra" non needed treatments "while your there"... Kind of like the auto mechanic that replaces the water pump when changing the timing belt. We don't want our doctors to replace our lungs, when we are getting a heart bypass... Got it?

And as a printer, where do you get off even having an opinion.

Wow... Are you serious.... We are not allowed to have an opinion anymore? Actually I choose our companies health insurance, so I have 31 (wait, we lost 8 since January... So 23 peoples families) depend on me to make sure I get the best plan we can afford. This new Obamacare plan is a mess. When the president says that "you can keep your current plan".

He is lying. Our company will not be able to keep our current health insurance, and ANY plan that changes... automatically becomes the "government" plan, and within 5 years private health insurance will go away... Except for the government "special" people like congress and the president...

Its a Have and have not system. Government picking "winners" as usual... And we the people get stuck with the bill...

According to you only a doctor should be able to make such a decision. So if I wanted to die, should a doctor let me or make me live? Doesnt that fall under playing God?

Well, since the democrats run everything, you will get your "lack of" choice Obamacare. I hope you enjoy watching as some government board determines who will live and who will die. While you can do nothing about it, as your health care costs continue to skyrocket... As we all know the government just spends and spends and spends...

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

Hope for Change 1.20.13

FreeEnterprise View Drop Down

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Posted: 13 August 2009 at 8:03am

Originally posted by mbro

Originally posted by FreeEnterprise

All of them are acceptable (even though there is not treatment that costs 1 million for 3 days... Nice strawman btw.

Whatever a doctor would do to save Obama's life... That is what we all deserve, and nothing less, no matter the age, including the unborn.

So we should all receive the same health care plan then? Even if we cannot afford it?

Under the Obamacare plan, YOU will pay for premium health care. Regardless if you want it or not. If you "choose" to not have health insurance, You will be dinged the cost of the plan when you file your taxes. As the IRS will force you to PROVE you have premium health insurance.

I have a health savings account. These will no longer be available.

This plan sucks, plain and simple. There is no way to fix it as it is just a bunch of lies, to get you to give more power to the government....

YESTERDAY August 12th was cost of government day, this is the latest we have ever had this day (the day you have finally paid all of your taxes, and now everything you make you get to keep...) Soon we will have zero take home pay... IT will all go to the government.

http://www.fiscalaccountability.org/index.php?content=cogd-teas#

As to your question on the sanctity of life... This is a good article.

http://www.worldmag.com/webextra/15750

Wait, I gotta go get in the cheese line, later.

Edited by FreeEnterprise - 13 August 2009 at 8:06am

Stay back, I'm a crazy, hyper conservative that is single handedly ruining the republican party, by bringing up facts...

Hope for Change 1.20.13